2 Power kords needed

[merlin]

Originally posted by julian2002
if it's truly the back rfi that's causing the differences would it not be a good idea to use these power cords on other appliances too such as pc's, monitors, clock radios, fridges etc? just a thought. or am i getting the wrong end of the stick here?

No Julian, I beleive you are right. I cannot really comment as I have not tested it myself, but some people swear that modems and CPU's run faster. I can say however that they make a huge difference to the picture quality of a digital display.

For HiFi use though, I feel we can all benefit from keeping the area immediately around the system free from excessive RFI and by isolating the components from one another.

 

[merlin]

Double post, bloody RFI causing havoc with the PC

 

[The Devil]

Originally posted by michaelab

I have read the reviews but there's still nothing that would convince me to give it a try. We all know how accurate reviews can be, and those are all now 8-10 years old. If it really was as incredible as you and those reviews make out then I would expect to see it still mentioned from time to time - at least listed in the summary lists at the back of the mags.

The fact that the reviews are old is irrelevant, Mana is not a new product and there would be little to be gained for a mag to review a product which hasn't changed - as I said earlier, they like reviewing new stuff. I know reviews can be unreliable in isolation, but this is a large number of reviews by different experienced reviewers, and they all agree with each other.

Mana is actually still mentioned from time to time, the arch support-sceptic Ken Kessler has mentioned that he uses it on at least two occasions recently in HiFi News. There are 'political' reasons why Mana is never mentioned by some of the magazines. If you want to know why this is, PM me.

If that's my loss, then so be it. I'm not prepared to discuss it any further

This is the internet equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "La! La! La! .... not listening!"

If I went the Mana way I'd have to change all my racking and my wife would hate it (I don't think it's exactly the most attractive thing in the world either). I'm just not prepared to do that, even if I really liked it.

Sorry, I mistook you for someone who wanted to improve the sound of his hi-fi. Won't happen again!

Hi Merlin,

The seismic sink didn't get along too well with my CDS2, either... this is because it doesn't do what it says on the tin.

 

[michaelab]

Originally posted by The Devil
This is the internet equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "La! La! La! .... not listening!"

And what of it? We've had a discussion about Mana (on a thread about power cords ) and I've decided for various reasons I'm not going to try it in the near future, what more is there to talk about? I've already made my mind up and given you enough reasons why I'm not about to try it - there's no point in trying to convince me any further.

Sorry, I mistook you for someone who wanted to improve the sound of his hi-fi. Won't happen again!

I'm actually very happy with the sound of my hifi as it is. There are any number of ways I could probably improve it, of those, trying Mana is not high on the list. However, if you happen to be passing through Lisbon with a spare Sound Frame then let me know and I'll humour you with a demo

The seismic sink didn't get along too well with my CDS2, either... this is because it doesn't do what it says on the tin.

What does it say on the tin that it doesn't do then James? At WMs place it was clearly demonstrated to me how the sink kills any vibration in the component sitting on it stone dead. I believe that's what it's supposed to do and common sense would imply that the method chosen to do it (pneumatic suspension) would be very effective. However, I've yet to have it demonstrated to me that killing the vibration makes any difference to the sound. At the one with/without demo of the sink I've heard, the result was far from clear cut for me.

Michael.

 

[julian2002]

merlin,
i wasn't wondering about the effect of the power cord on what it was plugged into in terms of performance... faster pc, hotter hair dryer. i was more interested in the assertion that a power cord blocks rfi from being fed back into the mains from a piece of equipment. i.e. the pc effects the way the hi-fi sounds. if this is so will a power cord on a pc improve the sound of a hi-fi?

also i don't feel as if i got an answer to my previous question about empirical measurement of the changes the system goes through with and without a power cord. i don;t think the russ andrews trip is relevant as this was purely a subjective a/b thing from what i remember. has anyone done a frequency sweep with an spl meter to try and see if there is any difference with and without and what these differences are? of course at the end of the day subjectivity will win out as to whether you prefer the changes with the new power cord in place but it would be usefult to know that there are changes. why? well everyone knows that speakers take some time to burn in from new right? well there was a piece in hi-fi plush a while ago where they compared a b&w cdm1nt with and without burn in and found infinitessimal differences suggesting that burn in is a psycological process which got me thinking....
cheers


julian

 

[PBirkett]

Originally posted by julian2002
the pc effects the way the hi-fi sounds. if this is so will a power cord on a pc improve the sound of a hi-fi?

Nope. I tried the Eupen on my PC and it didnt make any difference at all, except for the fact the PC wouldnt start up on one or two occaisions

 

[The Devil]

OK Michael, you don't want to know, I get the message. Sorry for going 'off topic', this is what sometimes happens in normal conversations.

 

[michaelab]

Originally posted by The Devil
Sorry for going 'off topic', this is what sometimes happens in normal conversations.

No need to apologise - I was as much responsible for the "off topic" as you were

Michael.

 

[adam]

As i stated earlier,I was seriously skeptic of the power kords,I bought the longest avaliable Kimbers,and was expecting to hear great things from it,heck!!! was i dissapointed absolutely nada,i put it on the transport,the DAC, the amp,all to no avail,power kords did nothing for me!

I heard the name Shunyata floating around.ok i thought lets not be narrow minded and give these cables a try,i didn't want to spend a fortune on them as i was sure i was going to be dissapointed,so i orderd 2 sidewinders.

When they arrived they felt more substancial than the kimbers,but how they would sound was more important,or would they even make a difference,?i was sure i was to be diapointed.


I plugged them in one on transport,(micromega)one on DAC (Cal Audio),and moved to other to amp (Copland).What did i notice?

I noticed at first and foremost the volume,wow ,it gained in volume,it was really quite loud,I hadn't moved the volume pot at all,but had to turn it down,the system was breathing,it gained in dynamics,and detail,and the limited bass of the SFs gained definition,i was to say,quite stunned as i was very skeptical.Ive changed my mind,like all things you need to TRY,whats there to lose?

On stands,i found they made a difference,not massive by any means,and this is on a very high quality stand,that cost far more than mana,and its not made in the uk Narrow mindness.

I found it help tighten the bass up a bit and add naturalness to the sound,small improvements that at the end of the day when you add up all the small improvements,you can have a very nice sounding system,thats not made in England.

 

[wadia-miester]

Evening Boy's back now, been on a grand tour of ZG land, Hi to Steve (7 V) and Robbo.
Ok, first up Chris did hhave the same demo as Mike, and I have to agree with Chris, at the time, it wasn't as marked as for Mike, and Chris comment is fair, I did the test for mike at 3pm on a sunday afternoon, and the test for Chris at 5.40pm on a wednesday evening, using thge ame cheapo wilkinsons extension lead and stock power chord.
Today, Steve 7V had a demo of a power cable in his system (on his rega planet), he can tell you all about it, Robbo, had the same power chords put in his system tonite, he can also enlighten you as to it's differenices if any. (cracking amp BTW Robbo )

 

[robs]

I was sort of thinking this thread would have been relegated to the Kindergarten by now...but it looks like it's been promoted to the Premiership, so my 2p's worth..

Power leads can have an effect on RFI by filtering/attenuating.
In comparison to a 'proper' RFI filter (caps & inductors & stuff) it (in theory) will have a considerably lesser effect.
Would it not make most sense to filter/attenuate the RFI as close as possible to source?
Why not substitute the IEC sockets at the components for a filtered RFI socket - considerably cheaper than most so called after market power leads, and more effective too..theoretically?
Haven't tried any power leads, so please feel freeeee to shoot me down in flames...
What does 'top class' gear have in terms of built in filtering?

 

[wadia-miester]

Robs, a lot of gear does run Shaffner filters O.E. some even put frerites in there , does wonders for the dynamics and life, we'll just leave as if you tried and like cool, if you tried and don't like cool also, as you've give it a go, else stop doing the bikerless biker routine. not every one will hear a difference, thats cool, buy more music instead.WM

 

[Paul Ranson]

I haven't seen a cogent argument (yet) for the perceived differences of mains cables being related to RFI suppression. Apart from anything the effects would be easily measured and the marketing sites are conspicuously devoid of results yet stuffed full of obvious nonsense.

It's not as though RFI management is a black art, domestic electronics has to comply with EMC standards and it actually gets important around your local hospital MRI scanner.

One thing that seems clear from reported experiences is wide variability, and that different cables work for different people. Each to his own I guess, but I'd prefer equipment designed to operate in a domestic environment (complete with immersion heaters, WiFi and cell phones....) without recourse to expensive mains leads.

Paul

 

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by Paul Ranson

It's not as though RFI management is a black art, domestic electronics has to comply with EMC standards and it actually gets important around your local hospital MRI scanner.

A valid and reasoned point there Paul, CE standards are set for a safe Human enviroment, and that an agreed limit is set by the reglatory bodies, given testing and accepted medical guidlines.
However a cdp/pre-amp isn't a human and there tolerence levels' are more finite (for optimum performance) farther than causing a medical problem, that may lead to the manufacture been sued
Quite right also that RFI control isn't rocket science, I mean how about double wrapping a 12" square sheet of tin foil, and sandwhiching between a thin level of cardboard, then laying that on top of a player, or wraping your stock mains lead with copper foil tape, then attach a drain wire to the earth pin (from the foil), some cables can act like ariels for RF, are you mains cables too close to the signal wires, and runing speaker cables well away from all the other control wires, common sense.
In some CDP's if you lift the lid, you will see a copper/foil plate on the lid usualy directly above the transformer of the clock, covering the clock in copper is another idea.
Most top notch cdp's use dual transformers, each encased in a faraday cadge double lined with layered mylar/ptfe sandwhich, with seperate supply lines all sheilded and drained.
Electronics are also built to a budget, what ever it says on the lid, most stuff is produced at 20% or retail cost so that means even the mighty 861 costs only £2k to make (possibly less), so a lot of good players have potential to be greater, just by careful appilcation, those with SWPS, can (on average) extract more by isolating the psu and related implementation, due to the nature of the beast.
As for the RFI rection of power chords, being a surfire winner, there are so many of them a so many itmes to attact them too, to give a yes it will no probs garantee. Current delievery is also another sidwe of a power chord as well, good one improve both area's, some just major on one or the other.
I do understand the sceptic's, for sure I was one, until YOU personaly hear something that you thing Hummm maybe more to this than multi stranded zero cystal copper, then forever a nay sayer you will be, as has so often been said buy more music WM

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by Paul Ranson
I haven't seen a cogent argument (yet) for the perceived differences of mains cables being related to RFI suppression. Apart from anything the effects would be easily measured and the marketing sites are conspicuously devoid of results yet stuffed full of obvious nonsense.

Paul

In what way Paul is a visual based experiment results superior to aurally based ones

Both use a human faculty, both results are interpretted by the human brain, so exactly where is the difference between seeing a change and hearing one? What use is an oscilloscope to a blind person. RFI suppression products are proven to function as described. Why exactly would the military use products like ERS to shield their equipment, and government agencies research and develop compounds at great expense if they serve no purpose? What do they stand to gain?

Additionally, why do you need to be able to corroborate aural differences with visual measurements when discussing products related to music reproduction?

As a Linn user, you must be aware that it is easy to take a measurement of the frequency response of your system in room and be appalled. If you look at the various peaks and troughs across the spectrum, logic would suggest, based on these visual indicators, that your music reproduction would be wholly inaccurate. However I suspect that your ears will tell you otherwise.

Speaker manufacturers will put notches in crossovers which will look poor on paper, but the results are often more pleasing to the ears. Many amplifiers will measure exactly the same in all aspects on the test bed, but again, will differ widely in the aural clues that they give us. So I suggest that your total reliance on visual data in this instance, is somwhat selective at best.

 

[sideshowbob]

I think it's fair to ask, that *if* improvements brought by power leads are due to RFI reduction, that this reduction be measured, and further, to wonder why it hasn't been (measured, that is). I take it this is what Paul is asking.

It's not a question as to whether people are hearing improvements, simply an attempt to discover whether those improvements really are due to measurable RFI reduction, or to something else.

-- Ian

 

[wadia-miester]

Ian, I feel what Paul is seeking is that ' is there a measureable difference in RFI radiation reduction' that coralates to a 'percieved improvement in the sound quality', maybe also a certain portion of the rfi band may give that ' vcertain sound' that one or 2 pieces of equipment give as for the above, I can't comment at the moment. WM

 

[SteveC]

Originally posted by merlin
...There are many charlatons in the cable industry, full of marketting BS and wild unsubstantiated claims. The trick is to know who is actually making cables that stand up to scrutiny, both from a technical and a subjective standpoint.

Ok I'm convinced! I've just come from the ERS thread and I find things are really hot here ... I was lucky I didn't get burned on the cloth stuff

So if I bought two mains cables to try out, what would they be an where could I get them on the web from Europe? After all, I was about to spend NOK 60.000 on amps and maybe I should try cheaper things first I thought maybe a couple of Eupens and a Sidewinder thingie. Could someone please give me the proper names and some suggested webshops

TIA,
SteveC

 

[robs]

Robs, a lot of gear does run Shaffner filters O.E. some even put frerites in there , does wonders for the dynamics and life, we'll just leave as if you tried and like cool, if you tried and don't like cool also, as you've give it a go, else stop doing the bikerless biker routine. not every one will hear a difference, thats cool, buy more music instead.WM

Not sure I understand what you're saying here WM, but I get the impression it should hurt..knew I shouldn't have joined in...

I've had a go at mains filters (made a positive difference - so much so that I made two more for TV etc). Fitted Shaffner to CDP (small difference), made up my own shielded mains leads (little difference that I could hear, but should work somehow in theory).

I also am somewhat sceptical of leads (& many other things 'audiophile extras') that you never see any 'figures' for. Telling me it will make an improvement cos it will doesn't wash...but then you are quite right - I should try some out for myself.
If a mains lead is not attenuating RFI, then exactly what is it doing to the mains that could give a different sound? What COULD it do to the mains? Is some RFI actually good..(I think this is what you're asking?)?

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by sideshowbob
I think it's fair to ask, that *if* improvements brought by power leads are due to RFI reduction, that this reduction be measured, and further, to wonder why it hasn't been (measured, that is). I take it this is what Paul is asking.

It's not a question as to whether people are hearing improvements, simply an attempt to discover whether those improvements really are due to measurable RFI reduction, or to something else.

-- Ian

Fair enough Ian

Still it's fairly easy to demonstrate with some items like ERS. Put a radio over or near the masterclock and tune in. Move the radio around observing the area of "reception", then stick some ERS over the source. The sifgnal will all but disappear.

But then I suspect the nay sayers would ask whether that really made any difference to sound quality or whether it was psycological

You see, it's not fair to try and have it both ways