2 Power kords needed

[SteveC]

Amateur radio kit in service of hi-fi

Leaving aside the question of whether it is RFI that is causing the audible problem, it could be nice to have a RFI sniffer to find out what is radiating or carrying currents induced by RFI. Here's one, in the USA. Could anyone point me to a European source for something similar?

 

[michaelab]

Originally posted by SteveC
I thought maybe a couple of Eupens and a Sidewinder thingie. Could someone please give me the proper names and some suggested webshops

Here are the details for getting Eupens:

http://www.audusa.com/main.htm

Click on "AUDUSA Eupen" on the left hand side. There are two types of Eupen cable the GNLM 05/2.5 which is £48 for a 1m terminated cable and the GNLM 05/04 which is £58 for a 1m terminated cable.

The GNLM 05/04 is fatter and it's white instead of black. Of the people who've tried both (including myself) most prefer the cheaper 05/2.5 cable.

You can't order it off the web directly but just give them a call: +44 20 8241 9826 and they're very helpful. Remember to ask for the correct type of mains plug to be fitted for Norway - I think it's Schuko like most of the rest of continental Europe.

As for the Shunyata (Sidewinder etc) cables, they are harder to get hold of as they are not sold in Europe. You have to buy from the US and that means you then have stick a European mains plug on aswell once you get it. They're also quite a bit more expensive.

Michael.

 

[wadia-miester]

Originally posted by robs
Not sure I understand what you're saying here WM, but I get the impression it should hurt..knew I shouldn't have joined in...

I also am somewhat sceptical of leads (& many other things 'audiophile extras') that you never see any 'figures' for. Telling me it will make an improvement cos it will doesn't wash...but then you are quite right - I should try some out for myself.
If a mains lead is not attenuating RFI, then exactly what is it doing to the mains that could give a different sound? What COULD it do to the mains? Is some RFI actually good..(I think this is what you're asking?)?

Robs, joining in is there for all , I wasn't directly having a poke at yourself. If we all agreed about this tuff then it would be a boring place, I just get minorly annoyed with the knockers who just go bollox, fine If you've tried it, if it then does nothing for you cool, but you've tried it.
Leads all types are proberbly the biggest 'black hole' of contension ever, with people quite rightly stating, why should I pay this and that ON top of the purchase price for the Unit, and I do agree. Wadia for example state in the manuals, that their OWN supplied power chord is all you'll ever need to use.
I would diagree agree whole heartly
Facts and figures, or validation again fair comment, if figures were published, for various cables, does that mean say cable 'a' with it's lesser amounts of spikes in zone 'b' of the frequency spectrum, will give a more cleaner and detailed sound, or possibly cable 'X' would give a more rounded and fuller bass in the lower spectral registars? who knows?
Whould you need an industry standard, who would set it, does it work, could it be fudged? (it's all excess B/S)
Some cables work better than others for sure* based on perceptive and imperical evidence, however the only way for you to sure, is a Trial for yourself alone, in your system.
Measurement of a Full frequency spectral sweep, before and after the cable, may prove enlightening, maybe from the wall socket, to the bridge rectifer too. this will give information, but how do you interperate it?, maybe the 'good cables' may produce more rfi in a different region of the spectrum, shifting out the 'way' of that particular companents 'frequency hot spot'
Different cable materials have a different 'sonic charactoristics, different rfi rejection/radiation patterns/could they significantly reduce the size of the radiated field, so this does not effect the surrounding components.
A whole pleathora of therories and suggestion can be banded around here, but for most the bottomline is, does it work or not .Only the indivdual can answer that. WM

 

[sideshowbob]

Originally posted by merlin
Still it's fairly easy to demonstrate with some items like ERS. Put a radio over or near the masterclock and tune in. Move the radio around observing the area of "reception", then stick some ERS over the source. The sifgnal will all but disappear.
[/B]

OK, so it can be demonstrated that fancy dishcloths reduce RFI. Has anyone demonstrated that any of these fancy power leads reduce RFI? Genuine question, I don't know. Have any of the companies involved made the results of such tests available?

(Note: I am not asking if RFI reduction can be correlated to improvements in sound quality, but a much simpler question.)

-- Ian

 

[The Devil]

I think it's fair to say that power cables do make a difference to the sound, but for me it's minimal. Naim also say that their own one is the one to use.

I think it might have more to do with the impedence of the cable more than the proposed RFI shenanigans.

Michael, just one last word about the seismic sink. You wrote:

"...it was clearly demonstrated to me how the sink kills any vibration in the component sitting on it stone dead."

I can't see how that could ever be demonstrated.

"...common sense would imply that the method chosen to do it (pneumatic suspension) would be very effective. However, I've yet to have it demonstrated to me that killing the vibration makes any difference to the sound. At the one with/without demo of the sink I've heard, the result was far from clear cut for me."

I agree with you that the sink doesn't appear to improve sound quality at all. I would have thought that use of an air column within the sink would be an undesirable thing.

 

[bottleneck]

Originally posted by michaelab
Here are the details for getting Eupens:

http://www.audusa.com/main.htm



As for the Shunyata (Sidewinder etc) cables, they are harder to get hold of as they are not sold in Europe. You have to buy from the US and that means you then have stick a European mains plug on aswell once you get it. They're also quite a bit more expensive.

Michael.

At the heathrow show last year, I had a demonstration of Shunyata Hydras by Stuart at Audio Atmosphere.

I believe Stuart is the UK importer/distributor.

I personally couldnt hear much difference going from a stock power chord through a 4-way to a shunyata hydra through its own distribution block...

However, ignore my feelings on it and try for yourself.. Anyway, give him a call perhaps he can lend you some to try..

Cheers
Chris

 

[michaelab]

Originally posted by The Devil
Michael, just one last word about the seismic sink. You wrote:

"...it was clearly demonstrated to me how the sink kills any vibration in the component sitting on it stone dead."

I can't see how that could ever be demonstrated.

Well, when WMs room is shaking and the shelves on his racking are vibrating (you can feel it when you touch them) but the kit sitting on top of sinks (on those vibrating shelves) is completely rock solid still that's a demonstration for me. Perhaps instead of "any vibration" I should have said "any vibration I could sense by resting my finger on top of the case"

Michael.

 

[tones]

Originally posted by The Devil
I would have thought that use of an air column within the sink would be an undesirable thing.

I'm not sure why that should be, Bub. In his British Patent GB 2 230 426 (now lapsed, if anyone wants to duplicate it), John Watson specifies that the frame be "devoid of tubular elements and closed cavities in its construction". He doesn't give a reason why, but then, in a patent, he doesn't have to - all he has to do is say essentially "do this and this and it works".

I presume that the avoidance of tubes and closed cavities must relate to the possibility of standing waves being excited in them, thereby causing resonance and unwanted vibrations. However, these occur only at certain frequencies, not right across the board, and sizing the tubes to avoid this possibility should be straightforward. (Edited to add: Missed something - In a quick look through the description of the drawings, he does use the word "resonant", so that's the explanation).

Tubes have the advantage of being inherently very rigid structures, much more so than the angle iron used by Mana, and therefore theoretically more suitable as construction materials for stands. A stand of similar rigidity as a Mana could be made much lighter. You will justifiably reply that the proof of the pudding is in the listening, but the Mana Effect may be due to other factors, such as the use of glass (specified in the patent) supported on upwardly-directed spikes. It would be interesting to hear whether a tubular stand built on Mana glass/spike principles would sound any different from your non-tubular version.

P.S. Glass features in the patent, but the black adhesive strips on the glass don't!

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by bottleneck
At the heathrow show last year, I had a demonstration of Shunyata Hydras by Stuart at Audio Atmosphere.

I believe Stuart is the UK importer/distributor.

ICheers
Chris

Just a quick word here. Don't buy this kit from Stuart Unfortunately he will, like most UK distributors, charge you £1000 for something I just picked up for £400 by using the internet.

At his prices, sadly Shunyata makes no sense, not even to me. FWIW, I sold my Hydra last night and have to wait for a replacement. In hifi terms, the differences are subtle with it gone. In musical terms the difference is sadly night and day. Roll on November

 

[The Devil]

Hi Tones,

Mana may look like a rigid stand - it isn't.

Try cueing an Aro on a Linn Sondek on Mana phase eight. You need nerves of angle iron.

Even pressing any of the buttons on my pre or CDP, both of which are at phase seven, makes it sway around. Hence I use the remote control for those.

 

[tones]

These things are all relative, Bub, I thought the Sound Frame that is probably now part of that Phase Eight was pretty rigid. So, are you saying that the thing has substantial flex? I wouldn't have thought that that would have been desirable. Perhaps it's just as well that nerves run in tubular ducts, ferrous or otherwise.

 

[The Devil]

Yes of course they are relative. A single 'phase' on it's own does appear fairly rigid on cursory inspection, but when you are setting it up you observe that there is a fair amount of 'torquability' in the (steel) frames. This is why the 'James Jong' method is so important when setting-up.

The way a Mana stand works is fascinating, I think.

 

[wadia-miester]

Again stands are a 'huge chasm' of fun interactions here, as far as measuring vibrations, it pretty straight forward a multi-plane accelerometer hooked up to the said piece of equipment, again you would be surprised at the results, and is it a case of less is more, or merely a certain type of vibrations give that certain sound? who knows, do you care? does it sound good. then that'll do .WM

 

[The Devil]

I think it's desirable that the stand can vibrate freely. You will never eliminate all endogenous vibration. Mana appears to leach the vibrations away from the boxes into the stand itself.

I think!

Edited to add:

The ideal stand should not 'store' vibration - perhaps this is what enclosed tubular structures will do?

 

[Paul Ranson]

Has anyone demonstrated that any of these fancy power leads reduce RFI? Genuine question, I don't know. Have any of the companies involved made the results of such tests available?

When my preamp and our baby monitor receiver are plugged in to adjacent sockets on a 4 way the pre interferes with the monitor. Swap the monitor onto batteries, plug it in elsewhere, or switch the pre off and the interference drops away.

So it would be easy to see whether a 'fancy' mains lead made a difference to the amount of pollution reaching the mains from the preamp.

Which would be interesting in itself, but obviously wouldn't say anything about perceived sound quality.

Paul

 

[Paul Ranson]

Well, when WMs room is shaking and the shelves on his racking are vibrating (you can feel it when you touch them) but the kit sitting on top of sinks (on those vibrating shelves) is completely rock solid still that's a demonstration for me.

To me this is evidence that Tony is trying to fix a problem with the Sink that shouldn't exist in the first place.

It would be interesting to rearrange his system and racking (removing that awful TV and centre speaker) to optimise it somewhat for stereo hifi use, and see what happened....

Perhaps Bub could scavenge up some Mana, I have some Sound Org tables, an Audiotech and some generic tripod stuff. Enough to make an alternative arrangement anyway.

Paul

 

[michaelab]

Paul - you're merely suggesting an alternative solution to the same problem. Why should Tony change if the Seismic Sinks are doing the job for him?

Michael.

 

[wadia-miester]

Paul, hey it's not prefect, but still produces a sound that is good enough for me to live with, with my family in a real room enviroment. when I move the sinks will stay (even though I'm building a custom room), because they work.
Are you telling me then that you have no vibration at all on your equipment? you should market that. Professor Earther's guide to total removal of interactional vibrations in a hifi system. Arhh I can see it now, "Ranson mobbed at W.H.Smith Book Launch', penguin can't meet demand, punch up in the high street for the No.1 seller, I doff My hat to you Paul.

 

[merlin]

Originally posted by The Devil
I think it's desirable that the stand can vibrate freely. You will never eliminate all endogenous vibration.

Absolutely James. Any vibratrion or indeed RFI is simply a form of energy. This energy cannot be removed, it can merely be changed in form or dissipated or both.

Some poorly designed stands simply keep the energy stored in a component, others force the energy to be reflected back up the structure.

Dissipation is the key. The claim for FESI 1000, the compound used in Shunyata's more expensive cords, is that it converts RFI energy into heat which is then dissipated harmlessly into the room. I can't prove that, still it makes sense. I wonder exactly how Mana dissipates the energy, and exactly where it ends up?

Can't believe I am asking about Mana Although you won't get a convert here-already used it and it just wasn't for me.

 

[The Devil]

Setting up a phase seven stack (5 soundstages, a four-tier rack and a reference top) shows that a 'finger tap' impulse on the top glass is transmitted down the stack and then is reflected back up it to the top again. Some of the energy will be dissipated as heat during this process. The four-tier rack in particular rings like a bell with a sustained note doing this.

Of course, a finger tap impulse on an empty rack isn't the same thing as a humming transformer in a box on a laden rack.

The reflection thing is interesting. I guess that each phase will transmit some energy down to the next in turn, but some will be reflected back upwards. The more phases you add, the more chance there is that the vibrations will be out of phase and cancel. I honestly don't know.

Some who know say that a Mana stand acts as an amplifier. The glass on spikes is probably responsible for this effect.