Anyone heard the GBP7000 NAIM CD Player?

To be perfectly honest I'm playing devil's advocate to a certain extent here - I'd agree with you that you can't necessarily pick up differences on brief swapping sessions as DBTs are usually conducted. I'm just trying to make the point that although your anecdote is a good one it doesn't disprove the validity of blind testing. And FWIW I certainly don't believe the 'hardcore' objectivist view that "all amplifiers sound the same".

Think I might leave this thread on that note, it's getting a little silly length-wise now...

 

Well, music has no emotion. It is just sound.
It only becomes "music" and "emotional" inside our brains. So what you are really asking is: Is it possible to describe our emotional *response* to music using language. The answer to that is probably yes, to a degree at least, by looking at and measuring the brain's response to music.

What is sad is that most people seem utterly unwilling to challenge their own preconceptions and prejudices.

 

Not at all dear chap!

I have never argued that DBT is not a valid method of removing all extraneous influences, allowing a decision to be made on sound only.

I find it very EASY on the other hand to say if a) I can hear a difference and b) if its an improvement for me, or just different

My points were, again -

1) If people cant immediately hear a difference that you like - why on earth would they want to pursue the product any further??!? Do people LIKE wasting money on products that need a scientific survey to establish miniscule changes? Or are they so unaware of the sound they actually like that they need evidence to back it up?!? If they dont even know what sound they like, why are they pursuing a hobby of hifi?!?! Do they DBT new cars? new houses? new wives? Its something thats best left in areas such as medical trials IMHO.

2) Taking a hobby of music and audio equipment to the point where we blindfold each other and swap things around in a home-science-blue-peter method IS sad!! For christ sake. Just put some music on and enjoy it. IF you DONT think its sad - describe the sorry scenario to your girlfriend - followed with the open question - ''do you think its sad'' !! YES she will say..!

 

Ah, but Chris, we all find this very easy. The DBT-ers point is that differences that we find very easy to determine under normal conditions often vanish completely in an unsighted test.

Nearly at 400.

-- Ian

 

Where would you go to do this? sounds interesting

Cheers

 

Good to see that you one of the few who actually read the discussion carefully.

My understanding is we all have suggested that if you think there is a difference or improvement then follow it up with carefully listening to see if they are real.

As for asking the girlfriend opinion, for my part she has indeed told me the 2 new toys sound similar from the beginning. It was myself who need reality check.

I am not saying all hifi toys sounds similar. It is just that there are some products that have no real advantage in terms of sonic differences/improvements. As Titian says, in this hobby the sonic quality of the products should be the paramount importance. If that is your views as well then we should advocate the Art of Critical Listening as well along with other methods of finding out which products offer the real improvement. If some manufacturers or hifi magazines do not practise this then it is more improtant that we the consumers have to be more careful.

 

Does no one else think that by making the tester blindfolded, you actually change the way he/she would listen? I know if you're enjoying your music, then you will close your eyes (or I will) but to make someone blindfolded - so they can't see even if they want to - will change their mental state slightly. I think you're put under pressure which you wouldn't normally feel, just like during any other exam (which is what it is) ergo making the results just as "coloured" (to use a hifi analogy ) as sighted tests. It's the classic problem of that which you study, you change. You're not testing the kit in a DBT but the end user, and by taking them out of thier habitat (i.e. relaxed when listening) then anyone could question the results. There is a scientific law for this, but I forget the dudes name.

Not that I'm taking sides, I just want to see this one dragged out

 

and

Was this when she was DBT'ing boyfriends?

(1 closer 400!)

 

Chaps,

If Titian made the above comments, then it has to be one of the best and most intelligent comments on this thread so far. Shame I can't say the same about many of the other posters' comments though.






Enjoy the music,

Lawrie.

 

But blind testing does not mean the person is blindfolded just that they do not know what they are listening to. There are a variety of blind test methods.

ABX lets you switch between A and B (which are different) and X (which is either A or B), and you simply say whether X is A or B. A bit like like having three colours in front of you, knowing that two are the same and one is different, and simply saying which two are the same.

An A-B test requires you to say whether what you are listening to is the same or different to what you just listened to. Like being presented with individual colours and saying whether it is the colour you previously looked at or not.

Or I suppose you could listen to A and then B (not knowing which is which) and after hearing both you say which was which.

That we are under pressure to say which is different (or better) is no different to a sighted test where we are also forced (or, rather, force ourselves) to reach this conclusion.

 

Hmmmmn?
Just revisited the thread. I'm amazed.
It seems to have taken on a objective vs subjective flavour.
An argument to which there is there has been no answer for the past 20 years ...... probably because manufacturers, Hi Fi mag writers, charlatans and hobbyists have built an industry around "The Emporer's New Clothes"

The original question was, is the new Naim CDS3 really worth seven thousand quid .... I.e. Is it so much better than a CDX2 or CD5, or can I get most of that PRaT (to use that expression) from another source at a fraction of the price?) I do love the Naim sound but I think the cost is lunacy.

It seems mindboggling that with all the resources in the world, Naim could be the only company on the globe who have stumbled on the secret of making a decent CD player.

I'm equally puzzled at the irrational fear of "unsighted" testing by the subjectivists. I could understand it from Hi Fi Mag writers and manufacturers ...... but from hobbyists????

Oh well. It was worth asking.

 

Typical, there's always someone who tries to keep a thread on-topic.

Nearly 400...

-- Ian

 

John, if Prat is your bag, then the cds3 isn't in the same league as the old CDX/CdS2, rougher, less detailed yes, but bags more drive & life , the new naim gear is gone much rounder and more mainstream, the cds3 is around in the area of meridains 588 in terms of preformance.
Try a densen Beat XS 400, or Wadia 850/830 driving the power amp direct, all the drive and life with a real presence and solidity with groove & flow.Wm

 

I mentioned this further back in the thread but no one took the bait :MILD: : there are more than a handful of Naimees who have gone for a DAC64 instead of a CDS3 and word on the street is that the DAC64 is making a small hole in CDS3 sales. The DAC64 "only" costs £1960 new. Of course following the threads on the Naim forum about which transport to use with the DAC64 many have suggested using the Tag DVDR32 DVD transport (the top loading one) which costs about £5K ....all the savings they were about to make by getting the DAC64 out of the window then :cry:

OTOH the Tag CDT20R (CD only transport) is a very fine transport and can be had for significantly less than £1K

Michael.

 

Michael,

I am not surprised by that at all.

John,

They aren't

 

What is this "CDXCdS2" of which you speak?

 

Im glad people are keeping their sense of humour with this one.

Taking it back to the Naim CDP -
the criticism of the price could be levelled at any high end CDP.

Using one of Bubs phrases - surely there is a 'glass ceiling' ?
Or better still, diminishing returns kicking in far below this price.

The CDPs Ive heard new and second hand in the 800-3,000 category are so good, I could never imagine wanting to spend more.

Money better spent on amps, speakers, and better still albums, holidays and life in general IMHO.

Personally, I wish Naim hadnt changed its sound. Its idiosyncracy was its appeal, to me. I cant see why another 'me too' sound is better for the industry. Money talks I spose.

 

Hmm - only 2 more posts after this one before we make 400....

We seem to have amazingly returned to the original topic of the thread

Michael.

 

Is 400 posts a big deal? What's the significance of 400 posts? I can't see any. Is some idiot going to think being the 400th poster is something special? Now that would be sad.