REL Quake

[lowrider]

Football and Mana, both irrelevant to this thread...

 

[greg]

nonsense,he played him off the park.Cole was the best player on the pitch.But Portugal deserved their win,they played well

I'm not a fan of Ashley Cole but he really did play exceptionally tonight and nullified the talent and energy of Ronaldo. I admit there is a small case for infringement by Terry on Ricardo, but I am personally convinced it was well within the bounds of acceptable play and the goal should have been given. However if England spend 84 minutes defending, they should expect to lose.

 

[The Devil]

You case is built on a false predicate that "Mana acts as a vibration sink". I've countered by pointing out that neither steel or glass absorbs vibration.

This just displays your total ignorance of what a Mana stand is made of. Do you know about the laminated wooden boards which are sandwiched between the steel frames? Why do you think they are there? What do you think they might be doing?

Ah, but I'm not the one making wild claims for the efficacy of Mana stands. If I were making such claims, then the burden of proof would be on me. You're making the claim, you provide the proof.

How am I supposed to 'prove' it? And why should I? I really don't mind what you choose to use, because I will never hear the results.

Anyone that get's off their ass and taps a pane of glass or a piece of steel is going to know what I said above is correct and conclude that maybe I'm not such a fool after all. They are also going to know that the foundation of your claims about Mana are false.

No, you are a fool. A big one. Get off your own ass and try a Mana stand, it's not so difficult.

Mana was recommended to me by Paul Stevenson, the MD of Naim. Prior to releasing their own support, the Fraim, Naim recommended Mana stands, most of the top people at Naim used them at home, and Naim supplied Mana Acoustics with Naim equipment to showcase both Mana and Naim at numerous hi-fi shows. Why do you think that Naim might have done this? They are an extremely high-profile & prestigious hi-fi brand worldwide, so why endorse Mana so enthusiastically if it doesn't work? To do so would have made them look rather foolish, like you do.

Earlier in this thread you showed you know nothing about off-axis response, but seemed happy to argue about it.

I've heard about off-axis response, I think its importance is vastly overestimated, and if it is so important, logic dictates that as I have added more phases beneath the speakers, the sound should have deteriorated. In fact, it has improved substantially each time. That is why I have continued to buy more phases.

The reason why most people don't use Mana is most probably an economic one. Multiphase rigs are expensive, but the basic rack is very reasonable, and can be upgraded with soundstages as finances allow. I didn't buy all mine in one go.

Cheers,

James

 

[dunkyboy]

Ricardo couldn't jump up to stop/punch/catch the ball because the English player (Terry?) had his arm over his shoulder in a rather blatant way. It's possible Ricardo did it on purpose to get the foul, but this seems highly unlikely to me - what possible reason could he have for doing it? That's the only thing that would have made the goal legal, and I don't think it's the case.

As for Portugal playing better... they definitely had the edge when it came to energy and aggressiveness, but seeing as England's tactic was clearly just to hold on to Owen's goal for dear life and put up a rock solid wall in front of their goal, I think they did a rather good job - the English defense was impeccable. Of course, IMHO the tactic was bound to fail eventually, no matter how good the defense, so I would say that's where the failure lay - in the tactics rather than in the ability or execution.

All in all, a stunning match - I don't particularly support any side, but it still had me on the edge of my seat.

And as for off-axis response differences - it makes a huge difference to any speaker, ATCs included, both in the vertical and the horizontal. My speakers sound their best when they're angled back a few degrees. Without it they sound MUCH worse. That said, I sit close to my speakers (maybe 6') whereas Bub sits a good deal farther from his, and the farther you sit the less it's likely to be an issue. It's quite possible he sits far enough away that the few feet's difference between sitting and standing just aren't enough degrees' difference relative to the speakers to affect the frequency response in any noticeable way - especially when room reflections, etc are added to the picture.

Dunc

 

[dat19]

This just displays your total ignorance of what a Mana stand is made of. Do you know about the laminated wooden boards which are sandwiched between the steel frames?

Hooray, he's finally remembered his wooden boards!!

Those boards are merely MDF - the very material that your speaker cabinet is made of. Your cabinet is a good deal thicker though, and yet it isn't soaking up the vibrations is it?

Why do you think they are there? What do you think they might be doing?

What are they doing? Nothing special. If they were absorbing the sound from above, then your stand wouldn't ring would it?

How am I supposed to 'prove' it?

You could supply some evidence from the manufacturer - but there isn't any, their "evidence" is a collection of typical hifi reviews, but those are just opinions, nothing more.

Mana was recommended to me by Paul Stevenson, the MD of Naim. Prior to releasing their own support, the Fraim,

naim, there's another bunch of bullshitters. You will of course be aware of naim's own hatred of all things ferrous - their technical (mis-)director Roy George needs flogging for his promulagation of "microphony" too, but I digress.

Naim recommended Mana stands, most of the top people at Naim used them at home, and Naim supplied Mana Acoustics with Naim equipment to showcase both Mana and Naim at numerous hi-fi shows. Why do you think that Naim might have done this?

I've heard similar things said about hutter...

Moreover, naim have a penchant for bullshit themselves: "microphony", recommending bizarre stands, they flipped on whether active or passive was a good idea, the "suspended subchassis" in a bloody CD player; a chronically over-priced preamp; and a top of the line power amp that gets kicked into the kitty litter by the likes of Bryston and Crown for less than one tenth the price; and let's not forget the shockingly poor stability of their power amps into not wholly unreasonable loads.

naim speakers do belong on mana - preferably in a skip.

They are an extremely high-profile & prestigious hi-fi brand worldwide, so why endorse Mana so enthusiastically if it doesn't work? To do so would have made them look rather foolish..

Well, they certainly seemed to have back peddled on Mana since fraim became available..

I've heard about off-axis response, I think its importance is vastly overestimated,

And yet many people here (no doubt) take the time to experiment with the "toe-in" of their speakers...

The reason why most people don't use Mana is most probably an economic one. Multiphase rigs are expensive, but the basic rack is very reasonable, and can be upgraded with soundstages as finances allow. I didn't buy all mine in one go.

They only thing that matters in your system is your speakers: your naim cd player and preamp could be replaced with a Benchmarkmedia DAC1, and a $50 dvd player. You could dump your angle iron, glass and mdf (lets not forget the mdf), put those speakers back on the factory stands and people would think your system was a lot less ugly and sounded the same. In fact they may even think it sounded better because they were listening to your speakers rather than wondering whether they were going to fall off your mana towers

 

[Robbo]

The devil wrote

but in fact you are making a fool of yourself.

Actually, you are both making fools of yourselves. Give it a rest, the pair of you.

 

[wolfgang]

Err... Not taking any side.

I could hear the effects of vibration on LP player. As for microphony. If my understanding is correct then to my ears as well microphony generated to within our listening room on the electronics circuits in the CDP and amps seem to be grossly over rated. On the other hand if you could hear the differences when speakers are angle slightly against the side wall then it does shows you have the ability to recognise the off axis response of loudspeakers.

 

[The Devil]

Hi dat.

You are a great contrarian, I'll give you that. Has anyone ever punched you very hard, completely unexpectedly?

If you look for any 'proof', as you put it, in any area of hi-fi, you will find none. Only mathematical proof exists, and this is not mathematics.

Cheerio.

Mana boards are not made out of MDF, btw.

 

[Alex S]

Bub,

<< Prior to releasing their own support, the Fraim, Naim recommended Mana stands, most of the top people at Naim used them at home, and Naim supplied Mana Acoustics with Naim equipment to showcase both Mana and Naim at numerous hi-fi shows. >>

You forgot to mention that between Mana and Fraim came Hutter for most. Naim's dem room still had lots of Hutter last time I looked.

Alex

btw what are Mana boards made of then?

 

[merlin]

Hi dat.

You are a great contrarian, I'll give you that. Has anyone ever punched you very hard, completely unexpectedly?
.

Come on James - play nice!

FWIW I do not doubt that the raising of the ATC's and the resulting off axis listening position does have a noticable affect on the sound.

I also believe that the stacks of Mana have a noticeable affect on the sound, having used Soundbases before.

Both of these could be considered a subjective upgrade or downgrade depending on ones point of view and listening preferences.

 

[The Devil]

Alex, PS recommended Mana over Hutter, YMMV.

Kisses.

 

[Alex S]

That's because he was so pissed off with Samantha and Frank.

Love

 

[The Devil]

I think he rather enjoyed their company, on the quiet.

I hope dat's finally totally happy with my proof.

 

[PeteH]

Mana was recommended to me by Paul Stevenson, the MD of Naim. Prior to releasing their own support, the Fraim, Naim recommended Mana stands, most of the top people at Naim used them at home, and Naim supplied Mana Acoustics with Naim equipment to showcase both Mana and Naim at numerous hi-fi shows. Why do you think that Naim might have done this? They are an extremely high-profile & prestigious hi-fi brand worldwide, so why endorse Mana so enthusiastically if it doesn't work?

Why should Mana and Naim be associated with each other? Well, I can think of two possibilities.

Interpretation (1): The market positioning, "brand perception" and industrial aesthetics of Mana and Naim are aimed at the same target audience of rather earnest music-lovers who feel a particular resonance with terms like "groove" and "flow" - the sort for whom "it's all about the music", and who tend to share a particular exclusionist / herd psychology whereby all other solutions are dismissed as laughably inferior. Appealing to this particular hardcore niche (who are particularly fond of the well-defined upgrade paths and hence represent long-term profitability) is good for both Naim and Mana and their association is particularly mutually beneficial - until, of course, Naim launched a product competing directly with Mana.

Interpretation (2): The strengths of Mana and Naim are mutually reinforcing (in particular their "groove" and "flow"), such that they appeal to serious music-lovers for whom "it's all about the music". Exposure to the joint effects of Mana and Naim will cause you to realise that all other solutions can be dismissed as laughably inferior - the only difficult decision being whether to spend your upgrade budget on the next-model-up Naim preamp or another few Mana phases.

Decide for yourselves which you prefer - or maybe we could have a poll

 

[lowrider]

Off axis does have an effect, but it depends mostly on the tweeters, the Concertos had to be toed-in or I wouldnt hear the treble, Electra Amators have much wider dispersion so they can be straight in order to have wider, deeper stage...

 

[The Devil]

Using trigonometry, I have calculated that the angle between horizontal and the seated ears is about 12.5 degrees. Should I worry?

PeteH, Mana seems to work with non-Naim equipment, strangely. But I can't prove it.... Could well be my imagination, and the people at Naim's imagination, and all the reviewers' imaginations, and the people at Astoria's imaginations, and the guy on pink fish with a recording studio's imagination, and the people who post on the Mana forum's imaginations, and all the people who happily use Mana but who don't post on the Mana forum's imaginations. Because we need PROOF, GODDAMMIT!

 

[analoguekid]

Using trigonometry, I have calculated that the angle between horizontal and the seated ears is about 12.5 degrees. Should I worry?

Bub that comes scarily close to nerdiness, thats what I'd worry about, next you'll be getting merlin iup to do graohs and stuff, then you may ahve to trade in all your kit for a mini system

 

[dunkyboy]

I think ATC spec their actives as having consistent dispersion to 80-degrees horizontal and 10-degrees vertical, so in theory you should be out of the "consistent" range. But I wouldn't worry about it if it doesn't bother you. As I said, you do sit rather far away and I suspect your room plays a bigger part in the sound of your system than the fact you sit off-axis.

Dunc

 

[dunkyboy]

Oops, I was a bit hasty there - they actually rate them as being "+/- 10 degrees coherent" in the vertical, so you're only just out of the "coherent" range, whatever that means. I really wouldn't worry about it.

Dunc

 

[The Devil]

I was just kidding about the worrying part. I think the 'tweeter at ear height' thing is for those who do worry. Anyway, see you next weekend.