So Thorsten has broken cover ...

The Devil said:
...although his natural heir is not far away.
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Delusions of grandeur possibly?

Better to be an idiot with an original thought and a little knowledge, rather than a clueless idiot who pay's extreme lip service to everything they happen to own at the time.
 
ShinOBIWAN said:
Better to be an idiot with an original thought and a little knowledge, rather than a clueless idiot who pay's extreme lip service to everything they happen to own at the time.
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Well, since audio is acknowledged to be "subjective", there is absolutely no "knowledge" to be had, only opinions. I really can't help it if I like my system, but everyone else who has heard it recently agrees with me. Which is nice. Personally, I think the room is the most important component in any hi-fi system.

I do like your use of apostrophe's, btw.
 
RobHolt said:
You mean Naim wound? ;)
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Behave! You've already been in enough trouble today! ;)

So, Mr 3dSonics achieved all that he has whilst having one arm and fighting in 'Nam....well, I don't know about you, but I for one am mightily impressed
 
The Devil said:
Well, since audio is acknowledged to be "subjective", there is absolutely no "knowledge" to be had, only opinions. I really can't help it if I like my system, but everyone else who has heard it recently agrees with me. Which is nice. Personally, I think the room is the most important component in any hi-fi system.
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It must be great to be a subjectivist.

My point was that knowledge is a requirement for well rounded debate on a forum, afterall we come on here to discuss and not just say "yep, mine is brilliant". Anyone with a pair of ears can judge a pair of loudspeaker good or bad. But knowledge is knowing how,why and how to make it better. It also helps to stop you quoting marketing duff, hearsay and reviews when it comes to actually debating what the product of discussion is.

Knowledge also helps you improve on something, take a look at your SCM50's. They've got flaws that can be cleaned up to make a better speaker. I know because I use the same mid and bass drivers. You just haven't heard the improvements on offer, no doubt you'll cite ATC as having 30 odd years experience and they should know their design etc... Blind faith is subjective which brings is full circle - it must be great to be a subjectivist. :)
 
Audio is only acknowleged to be subjective by subjectivists and it is purely their subjective opinion and therefore the statement has no value. Knowledge exists but our understanding of the perception of hearing and of audio engineering is incomplete. Especially in Bubs case regarding hearing - which is odd for a doctor. The improvement of audio is a scientific process not voodoo.

Bub you said the same about linn until you heard sme - and when you hear soemthing better than sme then you will diss the sme. You really havent got the joke yet.
 
Actually I think you will find that I did and that I presented my own take on the subject not T's - and it also just as clearly went over your head, though you vainly tried to disguise it with your usual blather. ATCs make my ears ache.
 
Nice to see your level of debate has moved on BBV...

Guess we don't need to worry about you applying for the absent Thorsten's post?

There is no doubt that on occasion T made some very valid and interesting points. There is also no doubt that on other occasions he was talking out of his anal sphincter. It was his reluctance to admit as much that probably bound you and he together and alienated a number of ZG regulars.
 
A reluctance which is second only to yours S&M - and by a wide margin. Sure he has very definate opinions and defends them forcefully - but he never does so in a condescending way and he can accept other viewpoints while maintaining a sense of perspective about forum matters. Consequenty its possible to disagree with him amicably and to gain from the interaction, especially given his willingness to help. Unlike some. Who have alienated more than myself and T combined...
 
The Devil said:
I think you'll find that it was, in fact, Thorsten who was -ah- a little unclear about auditory physiology. He just ran through his customary arrogant contradiction routine, with little BBV hanging on to his coat-tails. He provided absolutely no contrary evidence to the accepted theory of midband sensitivity.

Shinpads - ATC are an established speaker manufacturer, Thorsten isn't. Of course one can criticise anything, but criticism doesn't necessarily mean very much. The ATC 50 is a superb speaker, and I've heard them.
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Its not critism its an informed statement of fact based on evidence gathered; I've measured virtually every facet of the ATC SM75-150S and SB75-234SC drivers. I've also taken a good look at ATC own implementation and have come to conclusion both from a theoretical and practical application standpoint that they aren't using those drivers to their maximum potential. The ATC mid has many problems but the fact is its a superb driver once fully harnessed, its pretty unique in that it has such a massive flux density in the VC gap - 2.1 Tesla is twice as much as ~95% of other mids and only a few drivers in the world actually match or exceed this. What this means for perfomance is a whole lot of control and pin sharp dynamics.

I could list and provide evidence of the anomolies that ATC haven't addressed. These are quantifiable via measurement and also very audible through testing and comparing ATC's implemention to my own. There's no wonder folks like BBV say that the ATC mids make their ears ache when they have a cone breakup slap bang in the lower treble that isn't taken care of, and that isn't the worst of it - crap time alignment, rough FR response, crossing the mid with low order slopes on the highpass section right next to the drivers resonance. All this can be addressed and makes for a much better measuring, and definitely performing, speaker.

BTW I've heard the SCM50ASL 30th Anniversary BTW but not the plain SCM50ASL.
 
The pmc mid is even better ;) None of the nasties and even better strengths!

Anyone that can listen to atc for extended periods must be lacking the midrange in their hearing. Perhaps a defective ear canal horn?
 
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