naim...load of tosh??

head nail interface thing

 

Wadia-miester, Tone isn't it? (Please correct me if I'm wrong!), the Absolute Sounds trip where I listened to M/L, Wadia etc was nearly three years ago, so remembering exact details is difficult, but as far as M/L is concerned, I heard their £6k CDP (then) in conjunction with partnering M/L amps (I'm sure the guys at AS used the appropriate components) into a pair of Wilson speakers (not sure what model, maybe WATT PUPPIES?), and the sound was what I would describe as 'impressive' in a hi-fi kind of way, but musically unrewarding and rather bland.

However, it was the system's performance in the midrange (the most important part of the frequency range for me) that did it. I listen to a lot of female vocalists, so I took along some discs from Lucy Kaplansky and Kim Richey (amongst others), and their voices had a distinct 'pinched' quality, as the integration between mid and treble frequencies was poor; they just didn't sound real. The top end was also somewhat over-exposed. Furthermore, the system sound, as a whole, was dominated by a flat, rather 'thuddy' bass and, compared to my vastly less expensive (at the time) Naim system at home; it lacked believable dynamics and made little discernable attempt at timing.

Your comment: "the CDS2 is positively average in groove compared to the Wads.†is of course your opinion based on your experience, but I'd have to say, on the contrary, that as far as my experience is concerned, when I heard the Wadia player (the one a couple of grand more than a CDS2?), I liked it much better than the M/L, but, for me, it still didn't do what the CDS2 did...I guess it comes down to your definition of "groove", and a multitude of other variable factors to do with the room/mains/set-up and partnering equipment.

What I agree with entirely is your comment: "it is possible to have a lot of interesting bits from both worlds, just not that many guys have discovered it yet." Yep, so true. For me, though, having assembled a musically satisfying system over a number of years, the desire to further experiment with equipment just really isn't there. Your assertion is better directed at those currently building a system or starting off for the first time. If I do anything to my system, it will be to add a further four 135s (second hand) to tri-amp my SP100s because my system is set-up to allow me to realise the huge benefit of doing this, or maybe a pair of Stealth monoblocks. Mana-wise, I will continue to add levels until everything is at Phase 7; that done, the budget will be spent on music, wine, and good living :MILD:

Marco.

 

the problem i have with most naim detractors is that they seem to automaticly think that naim fans are saying that Naim has exclusive rights to "engaging, involving, musical" equipment.

tone,
if wadia is so good in the prat etc. stakes then why did you modify the hell out of yours (now the wadia of yours i've heard and yes it does a lot of the "engaging, involving, musical" stuff so no panty bunching please ).

it does seem that as soon as someone recommends naim gear there are a core of usual suspects ready to jump on the recommendation as ridiculous, fine, that's their choice but don;t get all pissy when the naim crew defend their choice...

i seem to remember various dac 64 owners vehmently denying the assertion that it was harsh and toppy when that accusation was made. still it's naim so **** it.
cheers


julian

 

I was reacting to Marco's suggestion that Tony's mods to his Wadia had merely had the effect of "turning it into a Naim" - as if he might have been better off getting Naim gear to start with.

I'm not a Naim detractor, I'm not really in a position to be. The only Naim systems I've heard were the two at the Heathrow show which I thought were shite but since they were show dems that means little.

I don't have any issue with Naimees defending their choice. It's their choice after all.

Michael.

 

Panty Bunching Moi? perish the thought
Well have you heard of the saying, "can't get to much of a good thing", I have a similar motto 'Too much is not enough' it's in the same vein to Les mods, to help the stock naim gear over come it's inhient lack of anything except groove, as much as I love the groove, it has to have more than just one single redeeming feature, so it's the same really, just from a different angle
Tone

 

So Marco, you are saying that you visited Absolute Sounds. Where was this exactly? At their offices or a retailer. Can you remember who it was that you saw? was it Pedro?

And you had a good listen to the Levinson rig they wired up for you you say. What was wrong with it?

 

Tone, don't let Lucifer fool ya with his prejudices, ain't no bass boom here...but don't take my word for it, come round and have a listen yourself and judge with your own ears! You're very welcome to do so

On a different note, I'm curious about the bit you said regarding Naim CDPs: "I try and refrain from having my ears removed Marco." Is this your experience of all Naim equipment? Because, in my experience, I only get this effect with badly set up Naim systems, generally on poor mains, and more often than not when Naim speakers are part of the equation (if everything's not working in their favour). It is certainly not how my system sounds.

As an aside, surely you didn't think the devil's system (with his CDS2 at the helm) 'removed your ears'? Much as I loathe the bloke with fervour previously unknown to man, his system is one of the best I've heard, albeit lacking slightly in soul and emotion, however, it does anything but 'remove your ears'. When the CDS2's spinning the tunes, through the 52, there's a lot of the Naim sound in there and none of it, in my opinion, is in any way aggressive sounding; just very real and musical. If I was to be critical, I'd say things were a bit too 'spot lit' and 'stripped bare for inspection' for my liking, but I'd put that down to the ruthlessly revealing nature of his ATCs, their professional monitor pedigree (hence voiced that way), and the ATC amplification, certainly not the Naim kit. I'd love to hear this system driven by a pair of Stealth monoblocks through a passive version of the same speakers…

So, out of interest, what listening experience(s) has given you this, IMO, false impression of Naim equipment?

I doubt it was your time at Lucifer's, and I could point you in the direction of plenty of other folks Naim system's that in no way exhibit the sonic characteristics you refer to. I get the feeling sometimes that you grab any opportunity to Naim-bash, whether it's entirely justified or not. Maybe you find the hype a bit tiresome? I can understand that. No probs though :MILD:

Marco.

 

Michael, if you've interpreted my comments in this way, then I apologise, as you've completely misunderstood what I said. My point to Tone was entirely tongue-in-cheek

I only offer my opinion (based on my experience), I'm certainly not into telling folk what kit they should have bought once they've reached a perfectly good decision.

Marco.

 

That's as ironic as an iron thing being ironed on an iron ironing board.

Again ironically Bub's system is the first time I've heard 'digitus' effects in years. Either they're real or the CDS2 isn't that great or the ATC Mosfet amps can be provoked into sounding Mosfetty or there's a problem with the ATC tweeter.

Fortunately not on every CD.... I refuse to buy the latest Fleetwood Mac to see whether it sounds similar here.

Paul

 

Sorry to persist Marco, but maybe you missed my questions.

Here's my thinking, forgive me if I misrepresent you.

You say that three years ago you visited Absolute Sounds. I take it this is the same company that imports AR, Krell, Wilson and others?. Here you were able to listen to a full Levinson setup (despite this product being distributed by Path in Thame), along with Wadia (again a different supplier). I know Pedro, and can assure you that they does not demonstrate a competitor's product, even if he could get them.

Even if I am misunderstanding what you are saying, you clearly imply that over three years ago, listening through a strange system in a strange room for a short period of time, you were able to decide that the Naim CDS2 was a better player and remains so. This despite using different systems at different locations. This seems strange to me.

As a bit of a Naimee sceptic myself, the above would suggest (certainly the AS references), that the story is a work of fiction, made up to justify the CDS2 purchase. I have this belief that there are some Naimees out there who simply refuse to give other kit an airing, seemingly preferring to stick to the chosen path. I see evidence of this in your comments re amplification. You seem to be focused on the usual suspects (Naim, Stealth etc), but there is no mention of comparisons with other references such as Bel canto, Audio research, Bryston.

There seems to be a level of predjudice at work here, particularly with the seeming invention of a demonstration to reinforce your point. This is the problem that I have with many followers of the Salisbury brand's products. It just seems so blinkered to me.

 

Sorry, Paul, not with you. Perhaps you would explain yourself more clearly? Don't fart about, just say what you mean...


P.S Merlin said: "So Marco, you are saying that you visited Absolute Sounds. Where was this exactly? At their offices or a retailer. Can you remember who it was that you saw? was it Pedro?

And you had a good listen to the Levinson rig they wired up for you you say. What was wrong with it?"


Merlin, it was in London at one of their dealers...if I remember corerctly it was KJ West One, but I visited quite a few dealers that day. I've also repeatedly heard Absolute Sounds kit (Krell, Wilson etc) at various London shows. With regard to your last question, I should have thought that was obvious from one of my previous posts.

Marco.

 

Blinkered Naimees

Merlin

I have two Naim systems and am often accused of being blinkered.

I bought a cheap second hand Naim system several years ago because I liked the sound, it really hit the button for me and as luck should have it, for my wife as well.

I upgraded and then reached the point where I decided I wanted the top end of Naim in my lounge and the current system could go in the dining room.

Up until then, I had not really listened to other makes due to lack of time and also because I liked the Naim sound. I decided to look around before I dived in and by using well heeled friends and fora, I managed to visit a few private homes. I find dealer premises useless.

I managed to listen to 2 Mark Levinson systems, one Krell and a couple of valve systems as well as a couple of Naim ones.

For me, the Naim won every time. I guess that the Naim sound just totally clicks in for me.

I therefore continued to upgrade along the Naim path and am pretty well happy with what I have got.

I am conscious, however, that there are other good makes out there, and as an example, the wife and I ventured up to Tones place to hear his system.

Make no mistake, had his system sounded better than mine, I would have had mine up for sale on Ebay the next day.

Tones system was a brilliant Hifi experience, very deep base, in fact, too much for my ears and the detail was unbelievable. However, to me, the Naim sound just communicated the music better, fortunately the wife agreed.

There is a Naim loyalty factor, there is no denying that, but the loyalty is based on good value, good sound, quality of build and customer care.

I love the sound and until I hear better I am sticking with it.

I hope that goes some way to explaining why some of us get accused of being blinkered.

Regards

Mick

 

Mick,

I understand fully and realise that for some people, the Naim house sound will always win out. I am surprised at the comments about WM's system however, at the time that you listened , it was not what I would call a hifi experience. Just goes to show the importance of points of reference.

It is also true that WM's old Wadia was hardly representative of the latest generation of gear, in fact, more than one person has claimed that he was trying to make it sound Naimlike, but I think that's unfair.

There are people out there who would not buy Naim on principal, in much the same way as some Naimees would consider alternatives to be inferior even before the first bar is reproduced.
it's just when you see glowing testimonials from Naim owners, involving comparisons with competitors that are dubious, I just don't understand the motivation.

FWIW, Arif at KJ has of course never sold Mark Levinson. They are an Absolute sounds dealer, also the UK centre fro McIntosh.
Maybe it was somewhere else Marco eh?

 

Hi Paul,

Did you hear any 'hash' on any CD other than "Say You Will" by Fleetwood Mac? It was the first CD I played that day, I'll have to have another listen to it with the system warmed up.

 

Marco,

There is nothing wrong with your system per se . You have a room resonance which I guess is provoked by using such big speakers in a confined space.

 

Right, I see. So it's no longer a "foghorn", or "PA" anymore?

 

I think it was Alan Ball who described it as a PA. The room/speaker interaction you have is not at all pretty on some material. Moving the system to a larger room would almost certainly alleviate this.

 

Quite possibly. I lost track of the amount of kit I heard that weekend. I hate trapsing round dealers, and London in general. The bottom line is that M/L, Krell or Wadia wasn't for me, and nothing I've heard since then has convinced me otherwise.

Marco.

 

So, one of you suffers from ruthless revelation, soulless presentation and digititis and the other's got bass boom and a PA. Arf.

 

Yes and your system is perfect Alex. Well done!