speaker cable

[Stereo Mic]

I know I prefer Pepsi to Coke but in a DBT couldn't tell them apart after about 5 goes

The power of the mind is remarkable don't you think.

 

[Arrowhead]

Init about time you lot got ready to go to church? The one with 'push' on the door.

Graham.

 

[ADPully]

There is a large body of anecdotal evidence that cables sound different - Read any hifi magazine report on cables they are all scattered with advice and comments from "experts" in the hifi field discussing cables. If one reads a magazine on Televisions, motor bikes or fishing similar experts give advice and generally it is taken as read -Why is it different here?

For sure this advice whether given in Hifi Mags is biasedand regarding cables the majority of us take the wild claims with a pinch of salt. But that doesnt mean it is all completely wrong.

Me I am still at the moment convinced there is something worthwhile with faffing about with cables from time to time. I dont spend vast money on cables. But I do believe cable changes can cheaply help tailor a system in a small way to suit individual tastes.

A truely fair DBT might convince me otherwise. However Im not sure there is much value in this.

This test would need to be in a familar room with a familiar system with two interconnects thought to be different by the recipient(s).

I also need some convincing that the placebo effect is a significant one for me? When listening to equipment I like to take a very long time to finalise my opinion on all equipment changes- this would including cables.

What irks me on this forum is that at any sign of individuals with similar ideals to mine to mentioning the word "cable" up pops other members think its their duty to generally misinterpret the post quickly often become offensive with talk of "snake oil salesmen" or simply a direct snipe asserting that the poster is a complete baffoon.

I suggest that because this sniping ZG has lost a lot of members with real experience. This experience can be a genunine benefit to those starting out and the forum is aworst place without them.

After all Hifi came in many flavours and its all about personal enjoyment of music - The more you enjoy it the better your system is irrespectve of what it cost or how it was assembled.


Whats next up for rubbishing? youve done Passive preamps, Electrostatic speakers and cables. In certain circumstances these can be very valid choices for others it really depends what stage you are in your system evolution. For me half the fun is the leaning.


I urge you guys to look inwards more often be a little more inclusive- Its getting a bit like George Orwells animal farm on ZG and I feel rather four legged.

Andy

 

[Baudrillard]

the cables i have for sale (5m isolda speaker cable) are the cables i purchased from you!

Cooky, when you see me spouting that BS and trying to get ZG'ers to buy the product, you can take the piss for all you are worth. Anyone making such claims deserves to be harranged until the cows come home IMHO.

Moooooooooo

 

[rollo]

Andy,
Very well said. Agree 100%.



rollo

 

[Neil]

Re these discussions - I enjoy them.
If there's a thread I find uninteresting / irrelevant / distasteful(?) I don't continue reading it. I've been around ZG since it was Groovehandle and one of the things I like is the variety / polarity of opinion.
With this cables thang it's good to hear opinion - my head tells me that there shouldn't be anything in it, as does my scientific background, however I do hear some differences (more with speaker cable than I/Cs - just sold some kimber I/Cs in favour of cheaper alternatives!) in my system. Whether that's down to LCR or something else I don't know / don't have the kit to measure.

 

[Stereo Mic]

I suggest that because this sniping ZG has lost a lot of members with real experience. This experience can be a genunine benefit to those starting out and the forum is aworst place without them.

Andy

Andy, I'd suggest that any advice recommending trying out some cables that another forumite has knocked up in his kitchen is only of genuine benefit to the vendor. It is harmful to those starting out - and I feel that the forum would be better off without that sort of poster. I'm not alone in thinking that.

It's a shame I agree, but I don't consider it insulting to be truthful about the situation. If someone sells dreams, with no basis in scientific fact and no valid evidence to support their claims, then the use of terms such as "snake oil salesman" is surely entirely appropriate - particularly when they use pseudo scientific market speak to try and win people over.

 

[DavidF]

Andy,
Very well said. Agree 100%.

rollo

agreed......and welll written.

esp;


"other members think its their duty to generally misinterpret the post quickly become offensive with talk of "snake oil salesmen" or simply a direct snipe asserting that the poster is a complete baffoon."

 

[Baudrillard]

It's a shame I agree, but I don't consider it insulting to be truthful about the situation. If someone sells dreams, with no basis in scientific fact and no valid evidence to support their claims, then the use of terms such as "snake oil salesman" is surely entirely appropriate.

The answer, MAGIC! The sound is fast but not bright; it is clear, open, fatigue-free and grain-free. Bass notes are precisely defined, deep and tuneful, with amazing impact. The midband, especially female vocals and solo instruments, takes on a naturalness never before heard from reproduced sound. The treble is smooth and fast with both brilliance and sparkle. But the cables never sound bright, brittle, grainy or spitty. They just sound 'right'.

Enhancedâ„¢ Isolda Deep Cryogenic (EDCT) Loudspeaker Cable is proven to improve the lattice structure of copper, eliminating small 'dislocations', and has an amazing effect on the cable's final sound. Dynamics are improved, clarity is further enhanced and the sound takes on a difficult to describe but immediately recognisable naturalness that untreated cables cannot match.

 

[George Sallit]

That's the problem IMHO George. If you are biased but able to prove your biases, how can you be closed minded? If you prove something, surely you are simply correct? I take your point though - a lot of audiophiles would take issue with their stance despite it's provability and grounding in solid well researched science. I think we seem to have the same problem here

I think we are all biased, maybe prejudiced is a better word.

Their Nuforce review is a good example.

Proved in this context .... is interesting.

 

[Stereo Mic]

George,

I wasn't aware they had reviewed the Nuforce amps. Do you have a link by chance?

 

[George Sallit]

Would you care to explain that George? If any differences are not measurable via the LCR characteristics, what do you put them down to?

The argument is AFAIK, that you can have small measurable differences that will not be audible, but you cannot have audible differences that will not be measurable.

Sure, there may be differences in sound quality that LCR measurements won't show. A simple one, if the cable is not well shielded and you use it in a dirty RF environment (using a SWPS for example), then the LCR parameters will still be OK but there will be noise introduced into the cable that could be audible (by modulation). This was my worry with the University of Toronto paper when they said the use of a normal mains cable was noisier than the Virtual Dynamics cable. LCR parameters don't always cover everything.

OK noise measurements, even in an RF environment, is straightforward and a measurement will (should) show this up.

But have we covered all the bases?

Like you I am puzzled why cable sellers (manufacturers tend to quote all this data without problems) don't quote these measurements. It may not tell people what the cables sounds like (assuming you believe this anyway) but it is relatively easy to do.

Maybe it is more to do with the oddity of this side of the business. In most parts of the audio business there tends to be a 'business' behind the products, but not always with cable sellers.

There are the big boys who also manufacture cables such as Nordost, Cardas and Supra. There are the big boys who sell but don't make such as Chord (from China) and most others. And then we have the 'gifted amateurs'. Now some of the 'gifted amateurs' will buy from various catalogues, try them out, hear one they like, knock up a few and try to sell them. Normally, these cables are far less expensive than others. But there is not a business behind them so it is very difficult for them to quote measurments.

For the Nordosts of the world, there is a business behind them (plusses and minusses). Some (like Nordost) actually do a huge amount of measurement for their cables, they sell some of them to the medical and space fields, who demand measurements. And I have seen a lot of data from Nordost on their audio cables at a show (ignoring the boll** about speed of light). Why is this not on their site with a message saying "we care about our cables", "we measure them" and "we give you good LCR and consistency". Also Transparent (who fit filter boxes in their cables as with MiT) also do a lot of measurements but no data on their sites. That to me is puzzling. It has also led to lazy reviewing where no one measures anything with these components. (And it is laziness as most amps get measured even though some mags then say they find little correlation with what they hear)

I guess the gifted amateurs might be nervous that if they did measure them (or properly use the manufacturers data) then you could identify the cables used and buy your own.

Alternatively, quoting these measurements will probably not convince subjectivists and only reinforce objectivists' views.

 

[George Sallit]

George,

I wasn't aware they had reviewed the Nuforce amps. Do you have a link by chance?

Apologies mixed 'em up with the hardwareanlysis site.

I'll have a look at the audioholics site as they talk about listening to stuff.

 

[RobHolt]

The answer, MAGIC! The sound is fast but not bright; it is clear, open, fatigue-free and grain-free. Bass notes are precisely defined, deep and tuneful, with amazing impact. The midband, especially female vocals and solo instruments, takes on a naturalness never before heard from reproduced sound. The treble is smooth and fast with both brilliance and sparkle. But the cables never sound bright, brittle, grainy or spitty. They just sound 'right'.

Enhanced™ Isolda Deep Cryogenic (EDCT) Loudspeaker Cable is proven to improve the lattice structure of copper, eliminating small 'dislocations', and has an amazing effect on the cable's final sound. Dynamics are improved, clarity is further enhanced and the sound takes on a difficult to describe but immediately recognisable naturalness that untreated cables cannot match.

I don't think SM has ever claimed that Isolda sounds better than say QED 79 strand. IIRC he bought loads of the stuff dirt cheap and flogs it on wherever possible. Nothing wrong with that if the buyers believe they are getting a good deal.

I have all sorts of wonderful cables in a huge box tucked under the staircase. There is silver Chord stuff, some elephant trunk LC-OFC 'Ohno' stuff, some flat Nordost shit, Supra, DNM......all sorts.
But, look at my system and you'll see I connect my speakers with £3pm Canare Pro wire and my interconnects are a mix of XLR balanced leads from a pro shop (£10 a pair) and cheap Klotz microphone cable.

Does having tried all these weird and wonderful cable brews over 25 years mean I'm a believer?
Of course not. I've tried it all and am as certain as I can be that cable sound is tosh. I've learned the hard and expensive way and if I can spare some poor sod the same waste of time and money I'll consider that a good job well done. If I then decide to clear out my stash of cables and sell a few to folk who've asked to buy it and made up their own minds does that make me hypocrite?

 

[cooky1257]

[/I]does that make me hypocrite?

No, but it would do if you still used the expensive crap from under the stairs.

 

[Stereo Mic]

The only hypocrites here are those who constantly complain about the arguments dominating ZG then waste their little lives trying to start them.

 

[penance]

Talking about yourself Mike?
You are getting rather tiresome and predictable.

Your pathetic thinly disguised jibes just serve to make this forum even less appealing to people.

 

[shrink]

no ones starting any arguments, i just dont understand how anyone with a decent system could be incapable of hearing the differences in cables. Case in point my £2 a metre gale cable, sounds just fine in my system, its basically the same as the van damme stuff. But can it be bettered, of course it can, and ive had this demonstrated to me many many times.

I can hear instantly how much im missing with my cheap cable. Performance and price are not always related, but certainly i have a hard time believing that the best sounding cable around costs £3 a metre.

Its more a case to my eyes, of people that simply dont bother that much about the whole cable thing, and as such dont really care if they can get some that sound better or not.

But anyone claiming that ALL cables sound the same, is clearly either deluded, or has never bothered to listen in critical conditions to more than one or two at a time.

I have, and i KNOW FOR A FACT, that there are audible improvements to be had from selecting the right cables for your system. Thats not saying that any one cable is better than any other, theres far too much at play to make such a sweeping generalisation, but finding what works best in any given system can reap rewards, and in comparison to the cost of the kit itself, fairly cheap rewards.

Certainly ive heard a difference in cables (in this instance between my gale cable and some townshend isolda) that sounded as if a different amplifier or cd player had been put in place. There was more of everything, more extension at both ends, more clarity and more musicality. Now in comparison to the price of a new amplifier for my system, i would consider the isolda or any similar performing cable, to be a good investment.

I have always likened cables to a cars exhaust system, you can improve the performance of a car quite easilly by choosig a well balanced and optimally designed exhaust system, and by not usig the cheap off the shelf parts that are fitted as standard. Yet you dont see people debating the merits of this, because its not debatable, its fact. The right combination of back pressure and gas flow, allows a car to make the most of either the torque or top end power (depending on preference)

I believe firmly that the same is true of cables. I dont need measured facts, statistics and scientific backup to tell me what my ears are hearing, i know what my ears can hear. Its not in my head (if it was blind identifying cables at random wouldnt be possible on a 100% accuracy basis)

Thats the end of my rant... im sick to the back teeth of this bloody forum just sprawling into cable debates, why cant the naysayers just be happy to stay as they are and not care about cables, and the ones that believe can be happy to upgrade and tweak as they feel necessary. Unless there are those of you who believe that individuals are not entitled to an opinion or preference.

The other and last point i would make is... if you dont believe cables can make a difference, why do you believe any part of the system can make a difference. Perhaps all amplifiers sound the same, or all cd players. In fact you would have a harder time convincing me that cd players sounded different over cables.

 

[penance]

why cant the naysayers just be happy to stay as they are and not care about cables, and the ones that believe can be happy to upgrade and tweak as they feel necessary. Unless there are those of you who believe that individuals are not entitled to an opinion or preference.

The problem is that people like SM waste their little lives trying to tell others they are wrong, sad.

 

[mr cat]

The problem is that people like SM waste their little lives trying to tell others they are wrong, sad.

true - and it's relentless...can't be healthy by and stretch of the imagination...